Islamul. Despre mahomedanism Options

[afobia]

The religious fact , to take it as a scientific object , report made in 2000 by Jacques Chirac
The relationship between France and religions in France (the course by teacher ..)
Regis Debray = socialist , in 1989 = 200 years of French revolution , big celebration , harsh criticism on the French politics , the deficiencies and lacks concerning justice and human rights ; France was never so unfair , inequal among peope
Year 2OOO : radical islam problem ; idea of JC : teach religion to young students and to give them so ideas ; then he published a report , not speaking about religion , but religios fact
In france since 1882 , the teaching is made by civilians , until that time these were the priests teaching the young peope.
University public : the police has no right to enter the territory of the university only with the accord of the dean.
Independent territory to give the freedom of speaking and teaching
Not extraterritoriality ; how to teach scholars about religion but without being religios otherwise they would have to be teached by clerics ; ambiguity in the title , reflecting the whole ambiguity of all French people and France on religion.
1 In france there was a quest for individualism , followed by secularisatio (laicisation) of societies.
2 Comeback Religion
In the past , the individual was not accepted ; Socrate was sentenced to death , drink poison because he was accused of corrupting young people because the young people to think by themselves.
In the greek society , only groups can survive & Socrate didn’t have any school , just walking with his students and ask thim what do you think about this etc , bringing a kind of consciousness in each of his students and that was not acceptable by the greek society.
Platon , was one of the students of Socrate , Socrate was thinking and Platon was writing.
Humanity are a group of people who are ignorant , they don’t want to move because they’re afraid ; everytime they move the shadow moves and they think the moster will come and eat them.
One of them “why shouldn’t I move” = dare to , following light come to his life and become revelation.LIGHT = KNOWLEDGE and discover the people in the convern are ignorant and that they should to break off their own fears.
Forget about monsters and enjoy light = they kill him.
The Roman society = polytheism = God for love , children , etc , but no one should think by himself , one example is PERSONA (latin) in the roman empire time was A MASK people should carry on if they play on stage , theater and playing a role wasn’t himself , was a way to appear another person , kind of fear of God , they were obliged to wear a mask and the name of the mask is persona.
Sénèque : dies in 65 after Christ ; The emperor was Nero (very pervert , killer) : S was also of comploting against him ; THE PHILOSOPHY OF PROXIMITY ; letters to lucisius by Sénèque : for the Roman Empire , S was like Socrate for the greek.
What is a free man , how to define , a free man is not a slave.only a free man can become a politician ; who can think by his own work (introspection) can become a political leader.
The idea is for Europe , christianism has introduces a kind of quest for individualism saying that christianism is not better than islam for example.
Christianity was experienced by the European people as a quest for individualism , to get out of the group , either Platon or Sénèque were thinking this way : The philosophy of Christianity is a following of the philosophy of Platon or Snénèque.
There is as a historical event , there is an appearance and introduction of Christianity bring a way of people to think they can exist by themselves.
Augustin Father of Christianity ? = saint = key example of this quest for individualism ; a guy living in Algeria ; enjoying life & one day in Milano , he was lying on the sun and a voice told him TELL & READ , he thought sun problems ; just before entering the house of his friends , he listened again this voice TAKE & READ.Entering the room , he found a book , the writing of Paul book confessions ?
The life before and after revelation ; Augustin loved women and he is just telling that in book ; also when he become a cleric , he made dreams about going to this kind of women ; GO INSIDE YOURSELF AND YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH.
Very interesting if u compare it to platon and Sénèque , these 2 were saying THE SAME THING but they were not Christians !!
Lebanon , the first thing after the girl or boy gets born , go to mayor to register in one of the 18 religions ; if not , at the majority age , 18 , the boy or girl will not have any right to vote or to be elected ; the person can’t exist by his own , one of the 18 possible religions.
Problem for civilian wedding : this doesn’t exist in Lebanon ; so they have to go to Cyprus and when they came back , their wedding isn’t recognized.
The quest for individualism in France was introduce and a consequence of Christianity.
Start to think by yourself but of course thinking about God.
This individualism was followed by the philosophers ; Descartes 17 century + Voltaire 18 century ; Kant in Germany
After Middle Age , the 8 to 10 th century : islam came in the Middle East with Mohammed ; from India to Mediterania ; the first four century of Islam are the golden century of Islam because it was absolutely NOT THAT MUCH FANATIC and the muslim scientist were following the muslim army , instead of killing and burning everything , they bring the book and they translated it.This discovery to the translation of the books bring RENAISSANCE
Rebirthing Europe : Starting in the 14th century , is preceeded by the quarto cento because the move come through the Italian ?? The knowledge of technique
After 10TH century , the muslims didn’t benefit from thecnoloqy and didn’t have this lightening way of knowledge?
The basis of self-reason : the quest of individualism was followed by the quest of individualism based by the thinking by the reasons.
Help think by yourself not only by your God but also by your reasons.
To use the reason in your thinking , in the way you think.
DESCARTES : COGITO ERGO SUM I am thinking so I am , if I am thinking makes me existing without the help of God.
My reason has the right to ask me about why I see , what I am thinking , there is nothing miraculous , just something to understand.
In the French history , the quest of individualism existing by myself introduced by the religios basis just changing the trace of the REASON.
There are also Islamic philosophers , they seem they lost what they brought to us , through Italy & France like Da Vinci is a pure product of all the knowledge transmitted by the muslim scientist by Europe.
Jewish holybook “u will teach the tora to the sun of your son” memon “nothing against the woman and lets teach the tora to the women” meimonit ?
PROBLEM IN ISLAM : Mohamed didn’t say who will be his successor so that’s why they couldn’t modernize themselves ; one of the reasons why islam is so radical.
Islam failed on 2 levels : shia and sunni fights with the fact there is no successor for Mohamed and that islam didn’t profit of the knowledge and that’s why they didn’t enter the modernity like France Italy in 14th century and Spain in the South for example.
The muslims forget about that.
The society political structure of soc in Europe follow getting separated by the religions??this is interesting because in the SECOND BIBLE , the Christian one , a basic sentence “separation between political and spirituall socitey” give to Ceaser what belongs to Ceasar , give to God what belongs to God
Problem is the roman catholique church : obvious reasons : they wanted to have the spiritual and political power.
Louis 14th to have , before the first revolution , the first separation of political and church power “The state , that’s me”
Secularization , French revolution 1784 abolished the clerics , took their wealth and decided to create the civilian register.
To register the born the dead and the ones that marry , civilian registration service
1882 : Le loi Jues Ferry : radical socialist , father of the French educational system ; the teachers shouldn’t be anymore clerics ; the teachers need to study at a school.
1905 : La loi sur laîcité : separation from the church and the state , still viable , this law says 3 things : 1 NO INTERFERENCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC LIFE , POLITICAL LIFE AND RELIGION , religion should be experienced in the intimate life ; 2 All the religions should be treated equally : no religions that should be prefferred , considered one above the other ; 3 The state (political system) should organize these equal treatmants of all religion.
Before , little muslims jewish and A LOT OF CATHOLIQUES ; try to put them away from all kind of influence.
65 milions people , 10 percent muslims , people praying on the streets.Problem is there the law should not pay for the religions , but they need to treat equally all religions (au biserici)
they shouldn’t spend any support for any kind of religion but in the same time the problem of equality.
Before 1905 , all the religious building build before this year are belonging to the state so the church Notre-Dame for example so it is a territoriy not a monument and the public power can finance restauration but all the building which will be constructed after that year they should be financed by private sources.
RADICAL MUSLIM PREACHING : recording examples for a mosque in france.
THE CORAN GUIDES THE LIFE OF RELIGIOUS BUT ALSO OF THE CITIZENS , that means according to interpretation it means that anyway muslim should follow coran not only in the private but also in public life.
French listened preaches from Saudi Arabia turkey etc “as the coran say,the values and the orders is HIGHER above the law of the French republic” and of course this is a major concern ; there is a strong ambiguity with this saying “they are on the border” should they follow the law of the Coran or the law of the French republic.
Dissimulation of the faith : law is aimed for preventing BURQA ; 1 Security 2 prevent women to be obliged if they do not want , to carry that so in any public places like bus hospital etc , if they see this a full dissimulation of their face “take that off” and he can arrest her and give her a fine.we don’t have cases Gaeries of Champs Elysee Saudi emirati women going to Armani and Gucci etc.

Second chapter
The first of year of 1000 will not exist , suicide in the end of 999
There shouldn’t be any religion anymore and the main law is the law of Max and Emille huh ? Theory of dise nchantement , desenchantement of the world
They studied the first two mileniums “the more the countries the societies are modernized , the more the societies are taking , learning with knowledge and technologies , the less they are religious “ ; knowledge reason technology and religion exp the comparation of religion and society. Exp when ure very young , belive in Santa Claus ; but use your reason , u become wise you don’t believe in anything anymore , the more the countries get industrialized the less they are religious.
Problem is now in 2011 is a major counter example of this law ; united states is the example : the most advanced society in which they still belive in religion.
1896 : Since when is the US the first producing country one fourth of the world wealth
since that time , they were not replaced ; why is us still a very religious society ?
3 POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS
1 Adam Smith beginning of the 18TH Century INVISIBLE HAND ? THAT REGULATES THE MARKET : he said that according to him , the creator of law and demand ; in the US , the offer is much more higher than the demande.huge offer of religiosity ; the offer is just surrounding the demand ; because u have imigrants bringing their religion
2 de la démocration en Amerique : explanation , taking in the account NR 1 and he said “smith is right , there is a market that is superior to the demand but it is not the only explanation.this offer is atomized , multiple.but this offer is characterized by the multiple tipes” due to the various type of imigrants bring religion and different religion , bringing various religions , the US could not experience what happened in Europe where was only Christianity , in Europe was easy cause there was one block , in the us were you have several small religions , its more difficult to separate all
3 the two are right but I bring something else : religion has a social meaning in the US , social relationship , it means not because they are religious but they have a social religious relationships ; a way to get in with each other.
A smith ; toqueville ; dulbheim

daca nu se intelege ceva , sa mi spuneti (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) si explic

ok (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) am multe greseli dar e cam greu sa scrii sa asculti si sa stai pe net (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by afobia: Mar 22 2011, 03:32 PM

[Katyella]

Cursul tau e alandala, ideile sunt amestecate, frazele induc in eroare , de exemplu ce am inteles eu : ca nu exista "casatoria civila" in Liban si ca trebuie mers in Cipru ca sa....ce???
Doi la mana - la un moment dat se discuta despre Islam ca despre o religie radicala -lucru neadevarat dar pentru asta nu vreau sa vin eu cu argumente , este suficient sa il citesti....pe Eliade de exemplu cu a sa Istorie a religiilor.Daca nu ma insel il aveti tradus si in Franta. Unii musulmani sunt radicali dar asta nu da dreptul nimanui sa lanseze o teorie a intregului
PROBLEM IN ISLAM : Mohamed didn't say who will be his successor so that's why they couldn't modernize themselves ; one of the reasons why islam is so radical.
Islam failed on 2 levels : shia and sunni fights with the fact there is no successor for Mohamed and that islam didn't profit of the knowledge and that's why they didn't enter the modernity like France Italy in 14th century and Spain in the South for example.
The muslims forget about that.
Nu cred ca e corect sa vorbesti despre "problema in islam" ca un termen general pentru ca Islamul e raspuandit in Asia, Europa, Africa iar eventualele probleme tin strict de locatie si nu sunt un "must have" pretutindeni

Parerea mea este ca acestea sunt niste notite rupte din context .
Imi pare rau daca am suparat pe cineva

Ah, au uitat francezii astia sa pomeneasca in curs si despre efectele colonizarii asupra religiilor si cultelor din Africa (IMG:style_emoticons/default/doh.gif) Pe vremea in care "individualismul" exista numai la generalii din armata

This post has been edited by Katyella: Apr 1 2011, 06:05 PM

[afobia]

hey Katyella , asta mi s a predat la scoala (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ideile sunt spuse exact cum a zis profesorul , nu am bagat nimic de la mine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
faza cu cipru e adevarata , el a si locuit in liban pentru o perioada buna de timp (vreo 6 ani) : daca nu esti inregistrat cu o religie la nastere , tre sa mergi in cipru sa te casatoresti si lumea te va privi ciudat si va considera ca nu esti de fapt casatorit , altfel in liban nu te poti casatori legal daca nu ai fost inregistrat la nastere cu o religie.
sunt sigura de ce am scris aici , stai linistita , iar laa faza cu islamul fiind o religie radicala , a dat exemplu de fapt ca in franta , cand a venit vorba sa deschida moscheee , au fost trimisi acolo diferiti "spy" si au auzit cum spuneau unii pe acolo ca allah este peste statul francez , peste guvern , "la naiba cu statul francez" iar asta a ridicat semne de intrebare , sa deschida sau nu un loc unde pot sa practice musulmanii ?
lor le este frica , francezilor si nu numai ; la tutorial , a fost o discutie libera cu toti studentii din toate tarile si toti erau speriati de islam , in special olandezii , IN SPECIAL.

[Katyella]

Cateva intrebari interesante pt domnul care v-a predat cursul: ce influenta a avut Franta in instituirea acestor legi? Cine detinea majoritatea in asazisa Republica imediat dupa fondarea statului Libanez.....oare nu maronitii? Apropo, maronitii sunt crestini
Libanul si-a obtinut independenta fata de Franta in 1943
Iar daca legile sunt inca tembele, ia ghici cine e de vina? Nu musulmanii pt ca nu au avut o majoritate in procesul legislativ

Vai saracii francezi cat de mult ii compatimesc. Oare trebuia sa se gandeasca mai mult stramosii lor inainte de a constitui cireasa de pe tortul colonizarii.....cum ca copiii (actualii francezi) ar avea de suferit ? Mda......Cand au costruit ei biserici prin middle east si au scurmat cu batul in gainatul altora nu le-afost frica? Si acum se tem ca vine Ahmed sa se roage la o moschee pe pamant francez?

Imi pare rau, cat de crestina sunt eu si tot nu pot sa suport nedreptatea, c-o fi alba, c-o fi neagra

[afobia]

francezii nu sunt religiosi deloc pot sa spun , si dupa profesorul meu , elevilor li se preda la scoala religie fara sa se incurajeze nici o religie , daca ma intelegi , sa stie despre religie , dar nu pentru a deveni religiosi.
nu mi am dat seama cat de "rau" poate fi vazut islamul pana la tutorial , cand toti studentii au vorbit despre asta ; le este frica , iar profesorul nu a facut nimic sa dea de inteles ca nu au motive de frica , daca ma intelegi ..

[Katyella]

A-fobia, eu cred ca tie ti-e frica de mai multe lucruri in lumea asta si oarecum iti face bine sa transferi aceasta teama ca apanaj al colegilor tai (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Pacat ca te indoctrinezi , imi pare rau ca nu pot spune "inveti " ceva....este suficient sa citesc cum descrii tu Islamul ca sa imi dau seama ca acolo, in Franta "va invata religie da nu ca s-o pricepeti ci ca sa stiti despre ea"
Succes pe mai departe draguta, eu as studia matematica in locul tau.....pentru ca mi-e clar ce fel de lobby faci

[afobia]

islamul l am descris din perspectiva profului si a colegilor mei ; poti sa tragi ce concluzii iti doresti , noi doua nu avem nimic de impartit ; dar daca tu spui asta , asa as putea sa trag si eu o concluzie despre tine : esti rautacioasa , dar pot oarecum sa inteleg , nu te cunosc , dar cine stie prin ce ai trecut in viata.

[Katyella]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/iloveelady.gif)
Greseala mea , credeam ca vrei sa pricepi ce anume inveti ...........

This post has been edited by Katyella: Apr 4 2011, 01:35 PM

[Teocris]

Eeeee! Fara cearta!

Afobia eu n-am inteles nimic din ce-ai scris tu acolo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/zapacitul.gif) De fapt nu inteleg rotul acestui topic, insa asta e altceva. Inteleg ca fiecare are cate o preocupare si ca probabil pe tine te intereseaza foarte tare subiectul asta, de aceea l-ai deschis.

Katyella, nu vad de ce te iei de Afobia (IMG:style_emoticons/default/magindesc.gif) Nu preda ea cursul asta si nici nu si-a asumat drepturile de autor. Daca te nemultumeste ceva esti libera sa spui, insa pastreaza "intepaturile"pentru tine.

Referitor la subiect, am gasit si eu ceva ce cred ca trebuie precizat aici:

Islamismul este uneori impropriu denumit "mahomedanism" si musulmanii sunt gresit numiti "mahomedani". Alte religii au fost numite dupa numele fondatorului lor sau al comunitatii unde au proliferat. De exemplu, crestinismul a fost denumit dupa Christ, budismul dupa Budha si iudaismul dupa numele tribului Juddah.
Dar islamismul nu a fost denumit dupa Muhammad (pubh) (pacea fie cu el!). "Islam se numeste INVATATURA trimisa de Allah pentru umanitate, relevata prin profeti. Muhammad (pubh) a fost ultimul dintre profeti. Deci, este gresit ca Islamismul sa fie numit "mahomedanism" si musulmanii - "mahomedani".
"Islam" si "Muslim" sunt cuvinte din Coran. Coranul spune:
"Singurul mod de viata poruncit de Allah este islamismul" (3:9).
"El v-a numit musulmani Inainte si Intru aceasta" (22:78).
Mesajul tuturor profetilor si mesagerilor de la Adam (pacea fie cu ei) pana la Muhammad (pubh) este acelasi. Ei cer oamenilor sa-l asculte pe Allah (si nu pe altcineva) si pe nimeni altul. Acest mesaj trimis prin profeti a fost completat In timpul lui Muhammad (pubh), care a fost ultimul din sirul profetilor. Aceasta completare este mentionata In Coran.
"In aceasta zi am Indreptat religia voastra, am sporit bunavointa mea pentru voi si am ales pentru voi Islamismul, ca mod de viata" (5:3).

[afobia]

Teocris , multumesc.

Mi s a parut un curs interesant si m am gandit sa il adaug la subiectul legat de religie ; diana a decis sa faca un nou topic , cam asa am ajuns aici.

Intradevar e greu sa intelegi pentru ca una este sa citesti un curs si alta este sa fii la curs , dar nu m am gandit ca o sa fac rau ca l am pus aici.

Eu consider ca sursa acestui curs : profesorul meu este un om deosebit , cu multa experienta de viata , cu f mult succes in cariera , el fiind nu numai profesor cateva ore pe saptamana , ci si jurnalist si psihanalist si se ocupa cu dezbateri legate de filosofie si religie de zeci de ani de zile.

Nu stiu ce cariera are Katyella , dar SURSA mea , adica acest domn profesor este o sursa sigura.

Profesorul a spus ca se invata religia in sensul ca sa se cunoasca despre fiecare in parte , dar nu ca sa devina religiosi , nu sa ii converteasca pe francezi la o religie sau alta , ci sa ii faca sa inteleaga fiecare religie in parte.